Sunday, September 05, 2004

Abortion trumps other issues

I recently pointed out that the USCCB, in a 1998 pastoral letter, Living the Gospel of Life: A Challenge to American Catholics, made unmistakably clear that the pro-life issue carried more weight than other issues because it involved the moral foundations of American democracy.

A commentor posted:

What? Show us the letter. In fact prove to us that what your stating here is what the USCCB currently believe and I'll shut up.
In keeping with their request,

"But being 'right' in such matters [policies on poverty, employment, education, etc.] can never excuse a wrong choice regarding direct attacks on innocent human life. Indeed, the failure to protect and defend life in its most vulnerable stages renders suspect any claims to the 'rightness' of positions in other matters affecting the poorest and least powerful of the human community." (From the US Bishops, Living the Gospel of Life, 1998)

No need to shut up though.


10 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't disagree with that statement; however I don't disagree with the 38 OTHER statements in the document. The article is properly titled, Living the Gospel of Life: A Challenge to American Catholics. It is not entitled, Abortion is the Ace in the Hole amongst ALL other Issues. If you have such an opposition to what the USCCB has to say in the entirety, why not just ask them directly what THEY think, instead of taking 1 outta 39 points they make and then reinterpret their intentions to suit your own. Just ask them if 'Abortion Trumps other issues'. Ask them if point 5 of 39 in their letter is the most important thing in the letter, important enough for someone to become a single issue voter.

6:29 AM  
Blogger David said...

"Just ask them if 'Abortion Trumps other issues'"?

Why would I need too? They have already reminded us of this in the letter I quoted from. What in this statement does not lead you to believe that this is the most important issue?

"But being 'right' in such matters [policies on poverty, employment, education, etc.] can never excuse a wrong choice regarding direct attacks on innocent human life. Indeed, the failure to protect and defend life in its most vulnerable stages renders suspect any claims to the 'rightness' of positions in other matters affecting the poorest and least powerful of the human community." (From the US Bishops, Living the Gospel of Life, 1998)

7:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Context does matter, D.S.

"What in this statement does not lead you to believe that this is the most important issue?"

If I quote one verse in the bible that states that there is nothing more important than a certain so-and-so, does that mean that NOTHING else matters, or even matter as equally as much? You see, me taking ONE verse outta the bible and harping on it may make me think of things outta context. That's what context is, that's what the other 38 statements in that letter do, that's what the other more recent statements on that website are there for. Does that make sense, or should I start quoting singular biblical verses to you in opposition to your, Abortion Trumps Other Issues, claim? How do you want to play this thing?

9:04 PM  
Blogger David said...

Each time I answer your arguments you have something else to complain about. I do enjoy the back and forth, but it seems you have nothing to back up your claims. No rebuttals except to state I am wrong. No counter arguments, just that I am wrong. And no supporting information to show that I am, well, wrong. It seems clear you are unable to offer up any defense.

I have read how Catholic apologtists point out to our Protestant brothers and sisters when they take certain scripture passages out of context. These apologists go on to point out what the context actually is and what the passage really means. You tell me the section I quote from is taken out of context, yet you fail to provide me what you think the context is. Enough of me answering you. You provide me the context you think I am missing. If the document should be read, that all these life issues are equal then why does it not state that? How does the document show that opposing abortion does not trump fighting poverty, avoiding war, etc? I have shown this is the true, though not widely proclaimed, teaching of the Catholic Church through statements from bishops, cardinals and encyclicals. You have so far placed the burden of proof on me. I feel I have provided more than enough information to support what I have written. It is your turn now.

8:04 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Each time I answer your arguments you have something else to complain about. I do enjoy the back and forth, but it seems you have nothing to back up your claims. No rebuttals except to state I am wrong. No counter arguments, just that I am wrong. And no supporting information to show that I am, well, wrong. It seems clear you are unable to offer up any defense.

Actually, the times you attempt to state negative things about Kerry and similiar positive attributes about Bush, I try to back up my arguments with facts, you know, like with links to government websites that tend to state you're wrong in your statements. And then I proceed to your next post. Now, I've tried not to attack you personally for sometimes posting simply erroneous statements- but I wonder why you need to resort to using them without first researching the best know facts. Now, there are many good things about our current president that would entice people to vote for him. Unfortunately, many of the reasons you give in support of the president are 'talking points', not facts. (I assume you will not address this point, because, well, how could you?)

With respect to the USCCB, I will as the same question I asked before:

"..prove to us that what your stating here is what the USCCB currently believe and I'll shut up"

11:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Each time I answer your arguments you have something else to complain about. I do enjoy the back and forth, but it seems you have nothing to back up your claims. No rebuttals except to state I am wrong. No counter arguments, just that I am wrong. And no supporting information to show that I am, well, wrong. It seems clear you are unable to offer up any defense.

Actually, the times you attempt to state negative things about Kerry and similiar positive attributes about Bush, I try to back up my arguments with facts, you know, like with links to government websites that tend to state you're wrong in your statements. And then I proceed to your next post. Now, I've tried not to attack you personally for sometimes posting simply erroneous statements- but I wonder why you need to resort to using them without first researching the best know facts. Now, there are many good things about our current president that would entice people to vote for him. Unfortunately, many of the reasons you give in support of the president are 'talking points', not facts. (I assume you will not address this point, because, well, how could you?)

With respect to the USCCB, I will as the same question I asked before:

"..prove to us that what your stating here is what the USCCB currently believe and I'll shut up"

The USCCB and the Catholic Church have made statements that simply contradict your view. Hasn't Ratzinger made statements recently that state, Hey, Catholic voters can vote for pro-choice candidates and NOT go to hell. Why won't you address this?

12:57 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Actually, the times you attempt to state negative things about Kerry and similiar positive attributes about Bush, I try to back up my arguments with facts, you know, like with links to government websites that tend to state you're wrong in your statements. And then I proceed to your next post. Now, I've tried not to attack you personally for sometimes posting simply erroneous statements- but I wonder why you need to resort to using them without first researching the best know facts. Now, there are many good things about our current president that would entice people to vote for him. Unfortunately, many of the reasons you give in support of the president are 'talking points', not facts. (I assume you will not address this point, because, well, how could one excuse someone for posting misleading and cherry picked facts?)

With respect to the USCCB, I will as the same question I asked before:

"..prove to us that what your stating here is what the USCCB currently believe and I'll shut up"

The USCCB and the Catholic Church have made statements that simply contradict your view. Hasn't Ratzinger made statements recently that state, Hey, Catholic voters can vote for pro-choice candidates and NOT go to hell. Why won't you address this?

5:58 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Actually, the times you attempt to state negative things about Kerry and similiar positive attributes about Bush, I try to back up my arguments with facts, you know, like with links to government websites that tend to state you're wrong in your statements. And then I proceed to your next post. Now, I've tried not to attack you personally for sometimes posting simply erroneous statements- but I wonder why you need to resort to using them without first researching the best know facts. Now, there are many good things about our current president that would entice people to vote for him. Unfortunately, many of the reasons you give in support of the president are 'talking points', not facts. (I assume you will not address this point, because, well, how could you?)

With respect to the USCCB, I will as the same question I asked before:

"..prove to us that what your stating here is what the USCCB currently believe and I'll shut up"

The USCCB and the Catholic Church have made statements that simply contradict your view. Hasn't Ratzinger made statements recently that state, Hey, Catholic voters can vote for pro-choice candidates and NOT go to hell. Why won't you address this?

6:04 AM  
Blogger bugmenot2 said...

Actually, the times you attempt to state negative things about Kerry and similiar positive attributes about Bush, I try to back up my arguments with facts, you know, like with links to government websites that tend to state you're wrong in your statements. And then I proceed to your next post. Now, I've tried not to attack you personally for sometimes posting simply erroneous statements- but I wonder why you need to resort to using them without first researching the best know facts. Now, there are many good things about our current president that would entice people to vote for him. Unfortunately, many of the reasons you give in support of the president are 'talking points', not facts. (I assume you will not address this point, because, well, how could you?)

With respect to the USCCB, I will as the same question I asked before:

"..prove to us that what your stating here is what the USCCB currently believe and I'll shut up"

The USCCB and the Catholic Church have made statements that simply contradict your view. Hasn't Ratzinger made statements recently that state, Hey, Catholic voters can vote for pro-choice candidates and NOT go to hell. Why won't you address this?

6:04 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It depends on where you get your sources on Cardinal Ratzinger. If you are inclined to believe anything and everything that supports your particular cause, you will read news media that does that, even some Catholic progressive press. Clearly the Cardinal can't follow around every newsperson to make sure that he is being represented truthfully. I think we as Catholics have to establish what is certifiably a Catholic Press. Many of the people on these newspapers are just volunteers, and their articles are like playing telephone and the subject matter gets misconstrued much in the way the game telephone does. If you want to equate welfare programs as social justice, than I have this to ask you. Is it justice when there is no way to get off of those programs? As Catholics are you supposed to support taxation as a means of doing your charity for you? OR is it more genuine and virtuous if you have to do the giving yourself by researching the charity and making the true effort to do the giving on your own? On abortion, how can you compare social programs to the death of over 43 million babies? Realizing of course that it was God's decision that those babies be in the womb (if you in fact agree with the Catholic perspective that this is really his body). We have a chance to overturn this horrible law. We can do it NOW. We only need a few more Republicans, and we owe it to them to give them a chance to prove themselves. Believe me, I will and others will be writing them to push them, and if they do not prove themselves to be as they have stated...they will all be gone from their positions. GIVE THEM A CHANCE!! John Kerry has had 19 yrs to prove to us that he will do more for the poor, that he will do more to stop abortion. He hasn't done it in 19 yrs and that is why he wants you to focus on Vietnam, because he is mortified to discuss his 19 yrs of unaccomplishments.

6:56 AM  

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